Help us grow and improve.
|
|
|
#93883 - 05/01/08 02:52 AM
Re: Race based hate in the UK
[Re: A.J. Drew]
|
Luthaneal
Likes Posting
Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 78
Loc: England
|
I hear so much about hate crimes in my own country that I sometimes get the feeling the United States is the world leader in these things. Of course race based hate crimes are few and far between in nations which have less of a mixture of races.
As I understand things, the UK has become one of the word's hot spots for imigration and as a result, racial tensions are on the rise.
Is this true and if so, what is the government doing to address the problem?
Britain has always been a mongrel land. I myself have a very mixed heritage as you go back through my ancestry, with a mix of English, Spanish and Irish blood in my veins. Personally, I have a certain pride in all of these ancestral roots and in good Pagan fashion, I respect my ancestors.
If I were to go back further, then I can say that my blood is Celtic, as well as a various mix from the Mediterranean. Like many Brits, I may even have some Saxon in there, too. In fact, recent genetic studies have shown that the vast majority of Northern Brits hail ancestrally from Scandinavian and surrounding regions.
British culture has always been mixed. Today it is just a different cocktail.
Do we suffer from hate crime? Yeah, sure. It's unfortunate, but it's true. But I would also say that it isn't overly common, in comparison to other crimes. We don't suffer much at all from religious persecution, I would say and any hate crimes based on race tend to be the products of our low class, low educated, types.
For the most part though, we are well integrated and coexist pretty well with other ethnicities that have become native to these lands.
I'd like to emphasis the Native part. These mixed cultures have been here for so many generations now that they are a part of British culture itself and they are British citizens, born and raised here.
Good luck to them, too.
Do we have a problem with immigration?
I would say yes, personally. But that is not a matter of alien cultures coming into the country and causing problems, it is rather a matter of immigration laws being too loose and too much government funding going to people who have no interest in integrating with society and becoming productive members of it. Personally speaking, I don't care who comes here, so long as they are willing to contribute to society and earn their citizenship.
When people talk about "racial tensions" as a result of immigration, it really isn't a matter of race. It is a matter of people feeling cheesed off about immigrants who just sponge off the country and have no interest in giving anything back.
To a certain extent I think this extends to language issues in some cases, as people would prefer that those immigrating take the time to learn English and integrate into society. Keep in mind that integration does not mean a loss of identity or their cultural values, it is merely a matter of becoming part of the land you are in.
However, I seem to have deviated away from the topic slightly. Being as this is a Pagan forum, I should really give more focus to religious issues.
Now, I am aware that much of the hate crime in the US is separate from issues of religion (as it is here), but I am also aware that some of it isn't.
Too often I hear reports from the US about the killing or beating of homosexuals due to "religious" reasons. Not to put too fine a point on it, but "Christian" religious reasons. We also hear about a fair amount of religious persecution (at a social level) against non-Christians, though rarely do I hear of this turning into violence, but I have heard of it resulting in vandalism of personal property and boycotting of certain businesses, along with protests of those businesses.
Over here that kind of religious victimization is practically unheard of, though this is most likely because Britain is a very secular country. Incidentally, I have always found it ironic that England, which has a national religion, is massively more secular than the US, which espouses a secular approach (supposedly).
That is not to say that here, things like Paganism are not counter-cultural. Indeed, they are (currently). It is just that issues of religion have little impact on our society and religion is a more private affair, for the most part. Certain kinds of Paganism may be viewed as odd by some people, but generally speaking, nobody cares.
So really, any hate crime that we may suffer, usually has absolutely nothing to do with religion.
_________________________
sweet dreams
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93884 - 05/01/08 02:57 AM
Re: Race based hate in the UK
[Re: VindhlersChild]
|
Luthaneal
Likes Posting
Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 78
Loc: England
|
From what I understand from people present over in the UK and Europe in this situation is that the government is perpetuating this trend. Groups like the British National Party are trying to address this situation, but are being attacked, as you have bore witness to, as being racists and fascists by the minorities as well as the self hating indigenous liberals. The latest group to attack the BNP are the Jewish. They have rallied Jews Europe wide to vote against the BNP. the Muslims are next in line for protest against this group. I have not found them to be racist or haters. I have found them to be like us here in the US, worried they are loosing thier lands and thier culture to this multi-cult wave of madness that seems to be plaguing the Euro lands of the entire West. Beings that I am the first one to understand that I am very biased on these points I can only offer my stance. Please take the time to investigate for yourselves if you find the British National Party to be racist and the such. I find they are not and I beg of you all to not take one woman's word on this matter and to find for yourselves what the truth is for you. http://www.bnp.org.uk/2008/02/28/bnp-policies/
It think that fehujibran did a very good job of summing up the realities of the BNP in the other thread that you started.
In regards to that thread, I would suggest that if you want to promote your politics, then you should take it to a political forum and not a religious forum.
_________________________
sweet dreams
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93917 - 05/01/08 02:15 PM
Re: Race based hate in the UK
[Re: Luthaneal]
|
fehujibran
Weekends at P.N.
Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 268
Loc: manchester uk
|
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93919 - 05/01/08 03:04 PM
Re: Race based hate in the UK
[Re: VindhlersChild]
|
fehujibran
Weekends at P.N.
Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 268
Loc: manchester uk
|
VindhlersChild - A.J asked a perfectly reasonable question, which you answered with one very vague sentence and then reverted to your BNP propaganda. That was VERY off topic. Shame on you. For the record this is the last time I will tolerate your ill informed political nonsense regarding the BNP in this forum.
There are, to my knowledge (apologies if I am incorrect, PM me and I will remedy the situation) three regular U.K contributors to the boards on Pagan Nation. Myself, Luthaneal and Prea. Not one of us is interested in having posts of BNP nature in the U.K pagans forum. If you continue to post BNP related material, or for that matter any material that contains content of religeous/racial intolerance I will from this point onwards flat out delete the posts.
But since you have dragged the issue back up again I shall respond duly this last time and then as far as I am concerned, as moderator of this forum the matter is permanently closed.
Groups like the British National Party are trying to address this situation, but are being attacked, as you have bore witness to, as being racists and fascists by the minorities as well as the self hating indigenous liberals.
The BNP are being attacked as racists and fascists because of their behaviour and for no other reason. In the last thread I stated a large selection of cold hard facts that support this. I am not a 'self hating indigenous liberal'. In fact I vote exclusively green party, I admit to to the indigenous part, because unlike you I am indigenous to the U.K but I am far far from self hating, so your assumptions in this case are sorely wrong.
The latest group to attack the BNP are the Jewish. They have rallied Jews Europe wide to vote against the BNP. the Muslims are next in line for protest against this group.
Probably this is happening in due part to these reasons;
The BNP, its former leaders and present leader, Nick Griffin, have promoted anti-semitism and Holocaust denial or revisionism in the past. In 1996, writing in his own publication, The Rune, Griffin stated that: "I am well aware that orthodox opinion is that six million Jews were gassed and cremated or turned into soup and lampshades. I have reached the conclusion that the 'extermination' tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter witch-hysteria.
In 2006, the party's deputy chairman Scott McLean was shown on the TV documentary "Nazi Hate Rock" making Hitler salutes at a white-supremacist cross-burning ceremony where intensely racist songs were sung and jokes made about Auschwitz.
Regarding Islam, suggested policies to help police this "threat to all of us" include a Muslim no fly policy. This would dictate that Muslims would be banned from flying in and out of the UK
Nick Griffin has made it clear that this shift in emphasis is designed to increase the party's appeal. On one occasion, he stated, "We should be positioning ourselves to take advantage for our own political ends of the growing wave of public hostility to Islam currently being whipped up by the mass media." In a speech to local party activists in Burnley in March 2006, he said:
"We bang on about Islam. Why? Because to the ordinary public out there it's the thing they can understand. It's the thing the newspaper editors sell newspapers with. If we were to attack some other ethnic group — some people say we should attack the Jews ... But ... we've got to get to power. And if that was an issue we chose to bang on about when the press don't talk about it ... the public would just think we were barking mad. They'd just think oh, you're attacking Jews just because you want to attack Jews. You're attacking this group of powerful Zionists just because you want to take poor Manny Cohen the tailor and shove him in a gas chamber. That's what the public would think. It wouldn't get us anywhere other than stepping backwards. It would lock us in a little box; the public would think "extremist crank lunatics, nothing to do with me." And we wouldn't get power."
The BNP requires that all members must be members of the "Indigenous Caucasian" racial group. The party does not regard non-white people as being British, even if they have been born in the UK and are naturalized British citizens. Instead, Griffin has stated that "non-Europeans who stay", while protected by British law, "will be regarded as permanent guests
I have not found them to be racist or haters.
The 2002 Channel 4 documentary Young, Nazi and Proud featured hidden-camera footage of the then BNP youth leader Mark Collett stating his admiration for Adolf Hitler, and stating "I'd never say this on camera, the Jews have been thrown out of every country including England. It's not just persecution. There's no smoke without fire." It also featured footage of visitors to the party's annual 'Red White and Blue' festival, some of whom wore the legend "88" (code for HH, "Heil Hitler").
The BNP had traditionally maintained a policy of re-criminalisation of homosexuality. The BNP opposed the introduction of civil partnerships in the United Kingdom. BNP spokesman Phil Edwards said homosexuality "is unnatural" and "does not lead to procreation but does lead to moral turpitude and disease". Alongside their suggestion that homosexuality "undermines social/marital cohesion by adding confusion", the BNP would make it unlawful to promote homosexuality and "return it to the closet where it belongs". The BNP is particularly worried about the possibility of homosexuality being promoted in schools.
Mark Collett, former chairman of the Young BNP, described homosexuals as "AIDS Monkeys", "bum bandits" and "faggots" and said the idea of homosexuality was a "sickening thought".
Seems pretty hateful to me...
I have found them to be like us here in the US
Really? I'm fairly sure there are lots of U.S PN members who would disagree...
I beg of you all to not take one woman's word on this matter
Please see Luthaneals post, i am not the only person to hold this opinion, and besides my opinion is formed from facts. which i have been quoting continuously. these things actually happened, so are not the product of my opinion. my opinion is the product of them.
And as for putting a link to the BNP own website and policies, this is the biggest farse of all because there is not one fascist party in the history of the world that stated the attrocities they intended to implent once in power in their policies, well because that would just be plain stupid wouldn't it, not likely to get votes that way. I'm completely sure the nazi party didn't get into power of the back of public declarations of mass genocide and intention to create another world war. really, don't make me laugh.
This subject is no longer up for discussion in this forum. please do not persist.
_________________________
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93924 - 05/01/08 08:30 PM
Re: Race based hate in the UK
[Re: Luthaneal]
|
A.J. Drew
It's not Kool Aid
It's Blue Zombie
Post Maddam
Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 4860
Loc: Ohio
|
Luthaneal - Oddly I do not have much pride (or shame) for my ancestry. Not even my father. My son and daughter can let out a loud burp and I am proud. I am not sure why, but when it comes to pride I see to only look forward. Interest in my heritate, yep. But cant say I have much pride or feel any which way about it. I think it is because unlike my forward line, I had nothing to do with my line backwards. I am not responsible for who they were. They are responsible for who I am.
It sounds like you view the UK a lot the way I view the US, except for violence towards homosexuals via religious nuts. Yes, we Americans do have to claim Fred Phelps although I would rather not. Most of the free world is far more progressive in that department and it is very sad that the United States seems to be falling behind in that department.
Racial tensions in the United States seem to come mostly from people who claim they want to end racial tensions. Seriously, I really think the great majority of Americans of all ethnicities just want to get along. Ah but the few that do not, well they are very, very loud about it.
I love race, ethnicity, and culture. I love learning about it, it is fascinating. Can't say I like all the values (or lack of) that each culture has, but it is great to learn about it.
Edited by A.J. Drew (05/01/08 08:32 PM)
_________________________
My goal is to become Einherjar or die trying.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
Moderator: fehujibran
|
1 registered
(Briena)
and 7 anonymous users online.
|
|
1846 Members
79 Forums
7935 Topics
85049 Posts
Max Online: 122 @ 07/01/07 12:53 AM
|
|
|
very well put 
